tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post6032840289484796783..comments2024-03-28T20:15:56.227-05:00Comments on CITY OF DUST: Someplace Wicked: Two Guns, Arizonajmhousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-62849761734262927592018-10-12T14:24:40.953-05:002018-10-12T14:24:40.953-05:00Thanks for the info, J Grumbo! I didn't know t...Thanks for the info, J Grumbo! I didn't know there was another, older zoo to the south. Any chance you could send the comparison shots with Miller in front of the zoo and again in 2015? You can find my e-mail address in the "Profile" section in the above right.<br /><br />As for me, I'm still wondering if Kirvia is correct in his comment and the legend of Two Guns and the Apache Death Cave is just that...a legend.<br /><br />Thanks again! JMjmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-53341363301228198542018-10-05T02:11:45.580-05:002018-10-05T02:11:45.580-05:00Re: the route to Meteor Crater observatory from Tw...Re: the route to Meteor Crater observatory from Two Guns, it is not fully accessible via the old 66 routing (fades out into the desert after a mile or so). Also, the stretch of 66 that passes in front of the red sandstone ruins of the Barringer observatory/watchtower (circa 1946) was blocked off last time I was there. (The one just off current Meteor Crater Road).Monkeybabylonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05499752439224611022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-44888305746873233962018-10-05T02:05:13.953-05:002018-10-05T02:05:13.953-05:00The I-40 exit (the gray pavement leading in was Ro...The I-40 exit (the gray pavement leading in was Route 66) was finally being built when a massive fire in 1971 torched the big red trading post, gas station, and rental rooms. There's heavy evidence still there. The zoo on the north side of the canyon (marked Mountain Lions) is from the newer town (post re-alignment of Route 66, 1930s). You'll have to cross the old bridge to the south to get to the older town (1920s) and the zoo Miller owned (as well as the old Texaco I mentioned before). I have a comparison shot of Miller in front of his zoo, and as it looked in 2015. Monkeybabylonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05499752439224611022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-2341538598500025572018-10-05T00:09:34.541-05:002018-10-05T00:09:34.541-05:00Hello Unknown,
Do you want to see photos of the e...Hello Unknown,<br /><br />Do you want to see photos of the entrance to the cave? Shoot me your e-mail address and I can get one or two to you. As for Route 66 between Meteor Crater Observatory and Two Guns, I think 66 *is* I-40 in that stretch. In any case, as I recall, Two Guns is totally cut-off from any other currently accessible road other than the I-40 exit.<br /><br />Hope this helps! Have a great trip! JM jmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-78743430525286377942018-09-28T04:11:26.824-05:002018-09-28T04:11:26.824-05:00I would love to see your photos. Going there in l...I would love to see your photos. Going there in less than 2 weeks. Would also like to know -- is the Route driveable between the Meteor Observatory and Two Guns without having to take I-40?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17166420170943947934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-57740520666936557922017-05-24T00:16:39.273-05:002017-05-24T00:16:39.273-05:00Hi Scott,
Just sent you an e-mail with a photo of...Hi Scott,<br /><br />Just sent you an e-mail with a photo of the entrance. Hope it helps!<br /><br />Best, JMjmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-85880145308779397382017-05-23T23:20:10.983-05:002017-05-23T23:20:10.983-05:00I have been here all day and would love to know wh...I have been here all day and would love to know where I can enter it. I have crawled into several openings. I am camping towards the back across the bridge. Please email me @sboden@bodenphoto.com Thank you so much if you reply. Scott Bodenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15793739480734842247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-35528525459289132172017-04-24T22:23:47.031-05:002017-04-24T22:23:47.031-05:00Kirvia, thank you for your comment. Do you have an...Kirvia, thank you for your comment. Do you have any historical articles or newspaper clippings regarding Canyon Lodge/Two Guns that you could share? If so, I'd be pleased to post them here as an update. What you're saying certainly needs to be considered as many times these legendary stories have been blown up way beyond reason. I was just writing a small piece about the <a href="http://cityofdust.blogspot.com/2011/06/well-shoot-lights-out-for-you.html" rel="nofollow">Express St. James Hotel</a> in Cimarron, New Mexico, which is said to have hosted both Jesse James and Annie Oakley, although there's no evidence Jesse James was ever in northern New Mexico and Annie Oakley certainly never put a foot in the state.<br /><br />It's particularly true that many of the lawless Wild West towns with 40 saloons, 20 brothels, etc., etc. are gross exaggerations. Kingston, New Mexico is of that sort, once said to have been the biggest town in territorial New Mexico. But virtually none of its Wild West history is factual, as I discussed <a href="http://cityofdust.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-way-things-werent-kingston-nm.html" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>. Yet the myth lives on and no one really wants to hear the truth anyway. It's simply more fun to believe there was a brothel built on Virtue St.<br /><br />Anyway, if you've got any material to pass along on Two Guns and/or the Apache Death Cave I'd love to see it.<br /><br />Thanks again, JMjmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-72887834059975600242017-04-21T21:23:28.186-05:002017-04-21T21:23:28.186-05:00I'm an historian by profession. I live in Nort...I'm an historian by profession. I live in Northern Arizona. I've been in the Death Cave numerous times. If you research the cave you will find that everything on it is written way after the fact. So let me tell you what I have found on the cave from the actual circa era. This far, pretty much nothing. No factual history. Closest thing I found was Apache taken from the cave and arrested. Approximately 12 or so. Now let's move forward to Henry/Harry Two Guns Chief Crazy Thunder. Pieces of the lighting he installed are still in the cave. The cave has not collapsed. The two beams from the original ramp that led tourists down to the cave are still there. Recently someone replaced the 2x4 ladder steps. Millie claimed to be Native American but upon doing research on his ancestry I learned he has no Native American ancestry. He went to Vietnam during war. Married had half Vietnamese children. Brought them and other Vietnamese back with him. Made breadlines with his oddities. Wrote archeological and historical nonsense. Convinced people he was Native and got a part in Helen Hunt's Ramona pageant when it was in San Diego. Two Guns was really Canyon Lodge. Had its own little post office even. He changed the name to Two Guns. I found an old news article saying he spread skeleton bones around the cave to make his ruins altar real. That article was written during his circa era, not after the fact. He did kill Cundiff and was accused of desecrating his grave. The dummy was attacked by the mountain lion and lynx. His daughter May was killed in a car crash. After he was run off from Two Guns he went to New Mexico where he built his next site of fake ruins. Now Canyon Diabolo. Again after the fact writings have that place wild and crazy. During the building of the bridge the town was called price camp or king camp or price and King camp because it was a railroad camp for the contractors. So, a young boy stole like 74 bucks from Otto and Charles Anderson and another Swede. The lynched the youngster. The men ended up in the Yuma territorial prison. Look their names and records up and you'll see. This is the only time I see in historical news that this place is lawless etc. Outside of that, Canyon Diabolo was referred to as peaceful. The Italian Masons caught some bandits and after that incident it returned to its usual peacefulness according to the papers. No mention of hell Street or prostitutes. It mentions the saloon where a stabbing happened. The saloon. That tells me there was one salon. A tent salon that mining and railroad camp's had. There were nasty castle and sheep wars later in the area, but the after the fact writings of this town seem to be a bunch of Bologna. Kirviahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999357091071569881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-8950626115025978342017-01-10T23:12:53.132-06:002017-01-10T23:12:53.132-06:00Mark Schliem, I've been to Two Guns a few time...Mark Schliem, I've been to Two Guns a few times now and have never had any problems with anyone I've come across. Which is to say, you may well see someone there, but they will likely be doing just what you're doing. Two Guns is mere feet from I-40 and pretty wide open. There are no posted signs either. Everything above ground is safe as far as I can tell. I'm not sure I would encourage anyone to crawl into the cave, so I won't say anything about that!<br /><br />Hope this doesn't get to you too late to be of use. Thanks for stopping by City of Dust and safe travels! JMjmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-70763366535539006942017-01-06T11:37:08.219-06:002017-01-06T11:37:08.219-06:00Is this a safe place to visit with my family? Not...Is this a safe place to visit with my family? Not from a structural safety, but more will we be safe from other people, locals, etc... Place sounds absolutely fascinating.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01265898786096003881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-48758252395685965002017-01-05T14:17:59.785-06:002017-01-05T14:17:59.785-06:00I am traveling to Sedona and love exploring old to...I am traveling to Sedona and love exploring old towns of yesteryear. This place sounds great, but kind of creepy. What's your thoughts on visiting with my family and exploring for a few hours? Is it safe? I worry when we are off the beaten path. Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome. Thanks.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01265898786096003881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-6483326041595776182016-04-10T12:43:06.739-05:002016-04-10T12:43:06.739-05:00Thanks for your message, Charlie Gunz. I've be...Thanks for your message, Charlie Gunz. I've been posting more photos of Two Guns recently on the <a href="https://www.facebook.com/cityofdustnm/photos/pb.251915061623737.-2207520000.1460309733./601944499954123/?type=3&theater" rel="nofollow">City of Dust Facebook Page,</a> including <a href="https://www.facebook.com/cityofdustnm/photos/pb.251915061623737.-2207520000.1460309733./601180993363807/?type=3&theater" rel="nofollow">this recent one</a> from inside the "Apache Death Cave." If you want to discuss more you can always message me through Facebook or send an e-mail to jmhouse(at)cityofdust(dot)com.<br /><br />Two Guns is a fascinating place, isn't it? JMjmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-15235258681837271952016-04-09T13:43:34.017-05:002016-04-09T13:43:34.017-05:00Please I would love to discuss two guns with u and...Please I would love to discuss two guns with u and see your pictures. Thanks.....Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11024351538874119179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-6047554203294471332015-08-20T11:27:00.507-05:002015-08-20T11:27:00.507-05:00I'm happy you're safe and sound, Martin Lu...I'm happy you're safe and sound, Martin Lucas! I am too! Although it's true that I still haven't gone in the *real* Apache Death Cave. Yet.<br /><br />Glad you enjoyed the post! JMjmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-57453714120993998382015-08-15T13:39:37.142-05:002015-08-15T13:39:37.142-05:00Visited the site in 2010 and am happy to say nothi...Visited the site in 2010 and am happy to say nothing bad has happened to me. Nice history of the place. Thanks.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04374014772151520312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-3667569564198941362015-07-08T15:33:43.845-05:002015-07-08T15:33:43.845-05:00J Grumbo, I think, like your first attempt, I went...J Grumbo, I think, like your first attempt, I went into the small room that was cut-off by the collapse and figured that was all I'd be able to see. But I know exactly where that wooden bridge is, so I believe the third time will be the charm. Although maybe it's strange to refer to a charm when you're talking about going into the Apache Death Cave at Two Guns!<br /><br />Thanks for the info. That does help! JM jmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-23312829773351558472015-07-08T07:43:43.010-05:002015-07-08T07:43:43.010-05:00The main part of the cave is accessible, and direc...The main part of the cave is accessible, and directly below what remains of the wooden bridge heading in. The cave-in is visible too, opposite the current entrance. If you walk around to the west side (above the cave in), you'll see the now collapsed wooden bridge that led along a winding path through some more of the faux ruins. From this vantage point, you can see the small western entryway in. There is a small room there that was essentially cut off from the rest in the collapse. (Looping around toward this, an apparent open "passageway" where I believe the Apaches must have been able to lead their horses down into the caves) This was the one I went into years ago, thinking that's all there was.<br /><br /><br />There is a bridge along Padre Canyon now that predates Two Guns' 1914 bridge by a few months. It's just north of I-40, not visible unless you follow the abandoned stretch of Route 66 from Winona (where it parallels the railroad tracks for a while). This old alignment goes past the bridge maybe 1/2 mile before it disappears, but it used to wind itself over to Two Guns ("Canyon Lodge" in those days).<br /><br />Glad if any of this helped. Monkeybabylonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05499752439224611022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-59663218553064398322015-07-03T21:37:50.796-05:002015-07-03T21:37:50.796-05:00That is great information, J Grumbo! Thanks for pa...That is great information, J Grumbo! Thanks for passing it along. Somehow the book by Gladwell Richardson/Maurice Kildare got past me. I might try to track down a physical copy. I found a couple for about $20 on-line.<br /><br />I also didn't realize that the concrete bridge was built in 1914. That's older than I would've guessed. Pretty cool! <br /><br />I hope to get into the right Apache Death Cave next time I'm through. I roamed around a much smaller cave last trip thinking there must've been a cave-in that was blocking me from going farther back, but I was in the wrong place. Alas.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks again for your comment. It's much appreciated! JMjmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-83471678104244196332015-06-30T05:03:00.669-05:002015-06-30T05:03:00.669-05:00A few notes... Maurice Kildare was another name (o...A few notes... Maurice Kildare was another name (one of probably a dozen) for Gladwell Richardson, who wrote the book "Two Guns Arizona" (the text is online here: http://www.hkhinc.com/arizona/twoguns/richardson.htm). There is also a chapter or two on Canyon Diablo town. <br /><br />The Death Cave is accessible (at some risk), though the back (west) entrance in - which was accessible over a wooden bridge and along a winding walkway through some faux ruins - can only be reached by walking in from the canyon now (as the wooden bridge over it has been burned and destroyed in the past few years).<br /><br />The concrete car bridge was built in 1914, just a few months after the similar one over Padre Canyon (north of current I-40). The National Old Trails highway was its designation at the time before it became Route 66 in 1926. You can find a much less impressive car bridge from the 1937 realignment just west of Two Guns (visible from I-40).<br /><br />The round building in the "newer" build of Two Guns was a Texaco station that belonged to Rimmy Jim Giddings, who had a more famous station at the crux of Meteor Crater Road and Route 66 long ago. He's worth looking up, quite a character.Monkeybabylonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05499752439224611022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-64377693751066157902015-06-20T17:24:36.573-05:002015-06-20T17:24:36.573-05:00Thank you for your comment, sherry roberts! You kn...Thank you for your comment, sherry roberts! You know, if you'd ever like to send any of your photos this way, I'd love to add them to the post. I'm particularly interested in that picture of the iron "jail" door. I had never heard about that.<br /><br />Nor had I heard of the Maurice Kildare piece. I couldn't find the text on-line, but I did find a reference to it. Do you have it, by chance?<br /><br />Two Guns is indeed a totally fascinating (and sometimes creepy) place. Long may it remain as-is and undeveloped!<br /><br />Thanks again! JM jmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-69616202737240266852015-06-20T06:01:01.951-05:002015-06-20T06:01:01.951-05:00I stop at 2 guns whenever I am on I40 goin to cali...I stop at 2 guns whenever I am on I40 goin to california ; I drive a truck its been 5 years since iv been there , I misss it, I .feel sometimes like its haunted; anyway iv got hundreds of pictures spanning a 10 year peroid where the old wooden bridge is iv got pictures of the cave opening before it caved in you could go back a little bit but there was a large iron barred door that blocked the entrance (like an old jail cell door) I have photos of it im glad to find stories of the canyon ,Iim from tennessee , in some 70s frontier times magazines an author name maurice kildare wrote of the history of the canyon ; he knew 2 guns well thankyou may 2 guns be here for our kids to see....sherry robbertssherry robertsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-29134880425889556542013-12-02T16:47:13.543-06:002013-12-02T16:47:13.543-06:00Natasha, I certainly wouldn't say you were jus...Natasha, I certainly wouldn't say you were just crazy! The vibe at Two Guns is a little dark even if you don't know its history. Once you know the history, well...it's even darker!<br /><br />Thanks for your comment! JMjmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-56379426448699291542013-12-02T14:45:21.546-06:002013-12-02T14:45:21.546-06:00I thought it felt kind of strange there..kind of d...I thought it felt kind of strange there..kind of dark. Hah, now I know we weren't just crazy!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00640094874871160743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7921005.post-13073940276271891632013-03-19T14:13:40.002-05:002013-03-19T14:13:40.002-05:00Thanks for the update, Crystal! It sounds like any...Thanks for the update, Crystal! It sounds like any "construction" work must have come to a halt then. Ah, such is the history of Two Guns. JMjmhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07470407787311078380noreply@blogger.com